I went to bed very disturbed last night.
No, it wasn’t the cheese sandwich - something far more agitating. I decided to stay up and watch Ben Anthony’s UK Channel 4 documentary on The End of the World Cult. It has been on my mind a lot ever since.
Former Seventh Day Adventist pastor, Wayne Bent (no, I really didn’t make that up), now known as Michael Travesser, believes he is the Messiah. This 66-year-old has spent 20 years preparing his 56 unquestioning and devoted followers for Doomsday. 7 years ago he took them to a remote corner of New Mexico called Strong City. They say they are all preparing for death, to go to a better place. He confidently predicted that the world would end on 31 October, 2007, and they all believed him.
There were three related aspects of this documentary that I found particularly chilling.
The first was the strength of delusion that was apparent within the leader and his followers. Although I now work in the field of mental health, I don’t pretend to be an expert in psychiatry, and I certainly am unqualified to make any psychiatric assessment. However, while watching the programme I found myself thinking that part of what we were seeing had something to do with a kind of individual and group psychosis.
Psychosis is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a “loss of contact with reality.” Stedman’s Medical Dictionary defines psychosis as “a severe mental disorder, with or without organic damage, characterized by derangement of personality and loss of contact with reality and causing deterioration of normal social functioning.”
Psychosis can take many forms, it can include:
- Sensing things that aren’t really there (Hallucinations)
- Having beliefs that aren’t based on reality (Delusions)
- Problems in thinking clearly (e.g. thought insertion, withdrawal, block, broadcasting)
- Not realising that there is anything wrong with themselves (called lack of insight)
Michael, being convinced that he was the Messiah, had a direct line to the Father, and the Father told Michael what to do with great frequency. The Father occasionally forced his body to do things. The members of the group who hadn’t left were the ones who unquestioningly believed him. They never challenged Michael. They just reinforced the delusion. And of course, the children born into the group knew nothing different to this particular distorted universe. The group gazed into his eyes with obvious devotion and hung on his every word. In being in his presence they clearly ‘knew’ they were getting close to the Father.
The second aspect of the cult that disturbed me was that not only were they blind to Michael’s delusion, they were also blind to the appalling inconsistencies between their desire for perfection (with a soon-to-come escape from this sordid world) and what other religious groups would describe as the ‘gross sexual immorality’ in their midst. Some of their behaviour would offend even liberal standards, and it certainly ought to have offended their own ‘higher’ standards, but they just couldn’t see the problem.
One of the first things the Father told Michael to do, after Michael realised he himself was the Messiah, was to have sex with two women. When the husbands of these two women were angry about this, Michael told them to direct their anger to the Father. He continues to consummate with them, along with others, including his daughter-in-law.
As part of her desire for greater holiness, a teenage girl interpreted Michael’s words about being ‘naked before God’ literally and asked Michael if she could take her clothes off. He thought for a moment before agreeing and then lay on the bed with her, hugging her. When questioned in the documentary about this, Michael justified it on the grounds that doctors see women naked and it is ok. Apparently M.D.’s are worse because they put their fingers inside women when examining them. Soon after this Michael was told by God to collect seven virgins who all took off their clothes and were hugged naked by him (at least 2 of the girls were under age according to state law).
The extent of the group blindness about the acts described above can be measured by the fact that all the women and their husbands in question are still in the group. His son, an ex-policeman (and very aware of the law relating to sexual abuse of minors), is Michael’s trusted lieutenant. On hearing of the sexual abuse, two sets of parents (former cult members), removed their children who had begged to be left in the group. After a few weeks the children elected to go back, some of them going on hunger strike in order to get their own way.
The third disturbing thing about the group, is that they have a theory that explains everything, even those things which are contrary to reason. You cannot hold rational discourse with them. They are unsinkable rubber ducks. Whenever you shoot them down, they just bob back up again. The documentary crew were banned from the group on October 31, the day that the world would end. They waited at the gates. At midnight, Michael and his followers walked towards the gates carrying torches in the darkness, ecstatically happy, crying “Release!” and “Freedom!” They then returned to their settlement. The following day, all requests for interviews were turned down.
Most people would have taken the non-occurrence of the end of the world as a serious blow to their confident beliefs. The group have stayed, and Michael knows that Father has put back the date until December 15, 2007. So the Father says you can have sex with other people’s wives and encourage children to get naked, and he can change the date at the end of the world, and only the spiritually blind and faithless would dare to question such things. It reminded me a bit like answers (or non-answers to prayer). If something happens it is great, if not, there is always a reason for it not happening - god said no, you weren’t holy enough, god is making you wait, prayer isn’t about asking for things anyway.
To an outsider it would seem that many people have been seriously damaged by the cult and there is a case for law enforcement agencies and mental health professionals to get involved to protect the children from further abuse - though I accept that the practicalities of that make any involvement extremely difficult, if not impossible. The whole religion just seemed another particularly hideous example of bad faith.
_______
Update 16/12/07: Interesting article by Richard Hannaford.
Update 27/12/07: You can now see a video of the first 20 minutes or so of the documentary. Click HERE.
This is a tragic story. I cannot imagine how emotionally deprived and psychologically scarred Travasser’s followers must be to have hooked up with him in the first place, and then to have stayed with him.
This story raises a question for which I have no answer (and you may not either): what is the point at which an extreme variant of a religion becomes a cult? For example, I view Appalachian snake handlers as very extreme believers but I don’t think they are a cult. Are they closer to that status than other fundamentalist sects? I don’t know. Are the key differences between snake handlers (to stay with this example)and groups like Trevasser’s a) degree of commitment to a specific leader and b) degree of isolation from society at large? Are there other distinctions that come into play in the transition from extremism to cultism?
I don’t doubt that members of more conventional religions would deny that there is any similarity between their group and Michael Travesser’s but I think the difference is one of degree, not of kind.
It is amazing how people who are clearly insane can gather and hold disciples in such strong bonds. Are we all drawn to insane delusions or is it the utter certainty of the leader that seduces people?
I would be inclined to say let them get on with it but for one thing: the children. The adults are responsible for themselves and if they hand themselves over to this man and his delusions, that’s their business. If we regard the cult as a kind of group disease, then it is self-curing because eventually the group will destroy itself, possibly by mass suicide like so many others before it. No matter how many times the end of the world does not occur, some group members will go on believing. In the end, death is the only way out of such circular situations. I think it’s quite possible that Travesser will receive an “instruction from the Father” to do this after Dec 15th.
That leaves the children. The children are not in the group by choice. Moreover they have their lives before them and deserve their chance of happiness. Removing them by force must be an option to be considered. Even if this is done, “deprogramming” them is likely to be a long and painful process and it may not succeed in every case but do they not deserve the chance? Then again, if handled badly, this could possibly lead to a Waco-like incident.
This raises the wider question of when eccentric behaviour becomes sufficiently extreme for there to be a presumption of mental illness and a need for the authorities to intervene. Perhaps our readiness to do so in the UK is the reason why these mad movements all seem to start in the US and none here. (David Icke excepted.)
With regard to the chaplain’s point about the word cult, this has long been seen as troublesome because of its lack of precise meaning and the pejorative sense that attaches to it. In academic circles the term NRM (New Religious Movement) tends to be used instead.
A very, very long time ago I had to write a philosophy essay about a group of words that express disapproval, but which have no distinct meaning of their own - and cult was one such word.
It is impossible to distinguish philosophically between cult and religion. They both have ceremonies, beliefs, behavioural practices. We tend to call something a cult when it is a religion that we disapprove of. So, in the UK at least, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons tend to be thought of as a cult because they are disapproved of by the mainstream churches.
The same is true for the pairing indoctrination and teaching. It is quite possible to find classes where a curriculum and pedagogy would be called teaching if you approved of it and indoctrination if you didn’t.
I agree with SilverTiger. The documentary probably should have been called ‘The End of the World New Religious Movement’.
the chaplain: I think your points about submission to a leader and isolation are interesting. The problem for me in using them to define ‘cultism’ as distinct from ‘religion’ is about where you draw the line. I can think of mainstream churches that I know that have pretty ‘heavy’ leadership, and groups (such as the Plymouth Brethren) that exercise a high level of isolation. If we take my argument that the word cult is more about expressing disapproval than content, and your points that cults often have powerful leaders and are isolated, there isn’t necessarily a conflict. Any group that isolates itself and submits uncritically to a strong leader is likely to be disapproved of by the dominant culture.
SilverTiger: I too contemplated the similarities between mainstream religion and this New Religious Movement, but aware of some of the ‘flack’ I might receive, I bottled it when it came to expressing those thoughts. However, your comments have emboldened me.
You wrote: I don’t doubt that members of more conventional religions would deny that there is any similarity between their group and Michael Travesser’s but I think the difference is one of degree, not of kind.
I agree that degree of irrationality is something to do with it. I wondered if cultural convention was another. Both groups have irrational beliefs, though the NRM’s is both more extreme, and less culturally acceptable to the majority culture. The majority culture is prepared to accept that a god impregnated a virgin and then sacrificed the resulting offspring in order to appease himself, but not that the voices a man called Michael hears are divine.
It is completely mind boggling how people can be so persuaded. It is nearly impossible to comprehend. The sad thing, he is one of, I am sure, thousands out there pulling this same stunt.
I missed the programme but wanted to watch it, so am interested in what you have to report about it.
The Bible talks about false prophets and Messiah’s- whether we actually think this is a credible source of information, I shall leave aside. He is just one example of this. There have been others and there wil be more.
What worries me most of all is how the power of one individual can have such a brainwashing effect on others. I agree with the Chaplain : it makes you wonder who these people are and their vulnerabilites, to do as one person bids with out any question.
I am seeing this now in another situation, completely different but equally destructive, where one person’s foot hold is completely destoying a family. All in the name of God. I indeed have to question the evil that is commited in Christ’s name.
When I read this I think of Hilter. How could one man sway a country to follow him at such costs to themselves and the Jews? But it was done.
I agree where you state:
“To an outsider it would seem that many people have been seriously damaged by the cult and there is a case for law enforcement agencies and mental health professionals to get involved to protect the children from further abuse - though I accept that the practicalities of that make any involvement extremely difficult, if not impossible. The whole religion just seemed another particularly hideous example of bad faith.”
I think the law should step in here on the grounds of the child abuse that is going on. You could also contentiously argue that there equivalent of social services should also be intervening in respect of the children. Though this action may fuel Michael’s dogma even more.
I read with interest the debate between the words cult and new Religious movement and will be looking at this in more depth myself.
i was so disturbed by this documentary. Many of the younger followers were clearly brainwashed into thinking having sex with this ‘michael’ would bring them closer to god. Why hasn’t he been locked up? The things he was doing with these girls i consider to be rape. These girls obviously didn’t want sex with 66 year old man, but he has convinced them that this will connect them with the father.
As for Michael’s own son, I feel he is trapped in that cult. You could clearly see he was unhappy and felt uneasy about his father’s way of preaching. As he said himself he burnt all his bridges a long time ago. I feel some of these cult members are in this situation, believed in michael at first, and made a sacrifice to leave everything behind, now feeling they can’t go back to their old life and this is their only way of living.
The part that really gave me chills was when the 2 children went back hime for a while. The girl starved herself until her mother took her back to Strong City and gave custordy to the girl’s grandparents who still belonged to the cult. Surely if the ‘messiah’ was in ‘Michael’, then he wouldn’t allow such a thing.
This man really gave me chills. He is manipulating naive people with strong belief for God into gaining his own sick satisfaction and desires. 15th december 2007, the new date for the end of the world. Hopefully this will be the end of the world for him and no one else.
[...] Update: those of you wanting a properly sensible and well-written review of the documentary should look here. [...]
Great doco no? There seems to be a feedback loop in these cult leaders brains where they take a leap of faith and believe their own bullshit. Jesus must have started just the same.
Nice article.
I wrote a piece on my wordpress blog yesterdday on that documentary. I was similarly disturbed, though equally annoyed by the sheer arrogance and egotism of the man, Bent.
He seemed to know exactly what he was doing. Deluded, maybe. But egomaniac? without doubt.
regards
p.s. like the site
JD
I agree with John Demetriou and many others above regarding this odious little man and his “sheep” - as someone said, “Why has he not been flung in jail?” The awful thing is that we have seen so many of these cults over the past 40 years or so including the disgusting Moonies, and even just in “normal” life you can observe evil, powerful, normally wealthy people (some of whom I know) who actually have people looking up to/admiring them and hanging on to their every word and these people are consistently manipulating those others. I feel it is due to our own lack of self-esteem and feelings of “unworthiness” that “we” would worship such people, whether they are powerful in the worldly sense or so-called have a link to God (like hell). Affirmation of our worth should come through knowing we care about others and perhaps help people now and again and achieve surmounting those everyday little hurdles that keep us down, not by worshiping another man, and most certainly not another human. I am agnostic I admit, would like to believe in the Bible and if any “word of God” is for me it would be that one, but you don’t need another human (or sub-human in the case of Bent - by name by nature - criminally so!) to let you see the light! Maybe if you need to ask questions about the word of God you can seek assistance from those (but not just one) who are a little bit more conversant with their Bible. Anyway, he was chilling in the sense that he had these people’s minds so totally wrapped up, but I just wanted to slap the little idiot - not impressive in any way, not even charismatic, and the people in the cult I just felt irritation for, I can’t bear people who are blindly impressed by anything whether it be celebrities (especially not celebrities) or so called Godly people, which brings me on to another subject - this is not too different to all the “famous” people who are into Scientology - for God’s sake, you belong to a religion that was dreamed up by a “science Fiction writer” - L Ron Hubbard - such thinking people ?? That makes him credible?? Enough said - Kim Jones
I watched this today, and I was a little - understandably, I think - shocked when today’s date was shown on screen. Have a nice end of the world day
You asked, after having seen the movie about me, Why is not the man in jail? It is because there is no crime. The movie infers all kinds of crimes which do not exist.
The movie does seem interesting and truly it trashes me to a very great degree and makes me and the others here all look pretty stupid. If Ben Anthony had told our story the way we told it to him, it might have seemed more reasonable, but he lied on numerous occasions with his voice over, knowing very well he was lying. The end of the world was the biggest lie told. I, or we, NEVER predicted the end of the world on any date. He, and some on the Internet who are somewhat mentally challenged, say that we set a date. Ben used his video lineup to make it appear that we set a date. The very last phone conversation on the video with my son, was edited to make it sound helpful to Ben’s lying. Jeff clearly laid out the issue, but Ben cut that all out of the film. Ben also recorded the phone call without Jeff knowing it. This is illegal in this country. The virgins told me also that Ben twisted their own testimony to look like they were talking about the end of the world.
Granted, we are a pretty strange bunch when viewed from your world, but we are soft candy compared to the activities of your own societies. When we get “crazy” according to you, we do harmless things like believe something. When you get crazy millions die, as in Iraq and other places. Your society hurts people and puts millions in prison. Your society tortures people and takes them away from their families for years, without charges or even a trial. We have no prisons here. We have no wars, we have no fights, we have no offenses. Why could not one of your better movie makers, Ben Anthony, simply have told the truth? Would that not been “crazy” enough?
When interviewing us, which was about 100 hours of taping, he used only 48 minutes. In the interview he told us he would tell our story. Later he told us that he would tell his story and not ours. I asked him if he ever lies. He told me that he does. I told him that his world just uses people for profit. He agreed. I told him that this was true for his movie also. Your world’s media is all about lying. This is something we never do in our world. We simply tell the truth as it is, and we told Ben all the truth as it was. But he lied the whole time he was here, making sure we knew that he saw us as the “good people” of Strong City. Your world would not know the truth if it bit you in the face. Our world lives by it.
Yes, it was an entertaining movie, but it was not about us. It was only a movie concocted to sell to the public and make a few bucks, and the movie had our face put on it. Too bad. You might have been given the chance to know our story. That would have been more interesting still, but Ben Anthony hid that part. Hours of testimony by the Two Witnesses was entirely excluded. It sounded too normal. It made sense out of too many things, and Ben did not want reasonableness, he wanted a monster movie.
Michael, how do we know and how can we believe that what you are stating is true and not what Ben Anthony showed us on film is indeed true? I have a few questions for you or anyone to answer to me as this seems propostrus!
1. How can you proclaim yourself Messiah, without any real proof?
2. Why have you set different date for the end of the world when clearly it hasn’t ended?
3. If the end of the world IS going to happen on a particular date what time would it be in your area?
4. Why do you insist on having sexual relations with people to make them ‘closer to god’?
As far as it looks, you have clearly planned this for a very long time, to take advantage of peoples beliefs merley to have sexual relations with them, especially minors, girls with ages of that under 18!
Is just seems to many that you are merley a manipulative illusionist, nothing else, and from what the film has shown, by your body language, you know it!!
Michael, thank you for leaving a comment. I would be interested to hear your views on my second point:
The second aspect of the cult that disturbed me was … they were … blind to the appalling inconsistencies between their desire for perfection (with a soon-to-come escape from this sordid world) and what other religious groups would describe as the ‘gross sexual immorality’ in their midst. Some of their behaviour would offend even liberal standards, and it certainly ought to have offended their own ‘higher’ standards, but they just couldn’t see the problem.
This is stupid, what will happen to all you followers when you die Micheal (Wayne)? And i can understand why you would want to change your name, Wayne Bent, its pretty appauling!
I found this documentary very interesting, so much that I’ve watched it three times, and he’s right, nowhere does he set a date for the end of the world. It’s the interviewer, Ben Anthony, that states that. This is very interesting. Don’t you think if he had footage of this man setting a date for the end of the world, he would have shown it? It makes me consider what else may have been skewed.
I am a former member of this cult, although at the time it was called The Lord our Righteousness. I left shortly before the name change. My mother is still in the “church”.
Many of the people in the “church” are very intelligent people, some were simple people, but I believe all had a desire for a deeper relationship with God and perfection. However, we are what we are and no amount of selflessness or selfishness changes that. At the end of the day all we have are our own actions and there consequences. Wayne may have never directly told people to believe as they do, but perhaps a little nudge in the right direction is all it takes. I can remember several ocassions when members of the church believed it was “the end”, of course it could always be conveniently explained away and of course Wayne had no idea where the notions came from. I just wonder how many times you can reinterpret the same prophecies.
Anyway, I miss my mother, I haven’t spoken to her in over a year and know of no way to get in contact with her short of going to the property.
Yes. Ben Anthony lied to us, about us, and violated agreements between himself and us. His character is the best your world has to offer, and THAT is why it will end. It simply can no longer sustain itself. The only reason it hasn’t ended yet is not because of an unfilfilled date, but because of the mediation of our loving Heavenly Father that has interceeded for this generation as the issues we shared with Ben Anthony were being worked out in our own experience. Evidently, those things were not sensational enough for your world, so he had to put his own spin on it to make us look like miserable, brainwashed, cult members. I had to laugh because that is exactly what the inhabitants of your world are. I know because, like Michael and Jeff, I too was enculturated, and educated in your world. It is nothing more than a noisy graveyard, like the kind you would see in a monster movie.
well its the 16th december michael, world still here. what a surprise, you need serious medical help. in the words of monty python “you’re a loony, your not the messiah, your a very naughty Boy” (Life of Brian)
There is none so blind as he who cannot see. It is better for that one to have never known the truth, than to have known it and turned away from it, for now darkness covers the earth - the world he chose to keep - and gross darkness the people.
Séphiroth and others, I think some of these questions are reasonable, and I will try to answer them for you.
1. How can one proclaim himself the Messiah with no proof?
I was not a self proclaimed Messiah. I didn’t even think of it. God spoke to me and told me that I was. Immediately, a Spirit entered me and I was instantly changed in character and Spirit. The people here saw the change immediately, but Ben left that out of the movie. I cannot help what God does with me. I was to follow the Father at the cost of my reputation, my “self image” and everything else. I ended up a “false Christ” my obeying Him. I have nothing left. Sometimes I have felt deserted by God because of what He had me do, but in those hard times He always came and helped me through the difficulty, sometimes with visions and dreams. Sometimes He would just come and give me peace. One would have to be crazy to choose this on his own. I certainly did not.
2. I NEVER set a date for the end of the world. Ben knew this. I simply pointed to the date when the prophecy ended. This was October 31, 2007. That prophecy was Daniel 9. Just get your little calculator out, and figure it yourself. God told me to begin the counting with Martin Luther’s date for the 95 Theses. Count 483 years and you will come to the year 2000. That is when I was anointed. I was the second “Prince” which was to come, and it says that this Prince would make a covenant with many for one week (seven years). That I have done, and completed now. Then, in Daniel 12 he writes concerning the 1335 which is 45 days later. It is the day of blessing. This was yesterday. Nowhere is there mentioned an end of the world. This focus was simply a lie Ben told to make his scary movie.
3. I have NEVER, EVER insisted on sex with anyone. Every time a sexual contact was initiated, I would be told by the Father that it would occur, and sometimes just when it would occur, and it was for a particular purpose. Presently, I am sexually active with no one. The world has greatly perverted the sexual so that it all looks filthy and everyone goes about guilty over it. But God made sex in almost everything but rocks. Trees, grass, animals and humans all have sexuality, and it is to show a spiritual reality. But why was I used for sex anyway? Why would God make things sexual? I have written many times about this. God came into me, and used me to show Himself, and that He is the only true Husband. Earthly marriages are now void and without meaning. The Father no longer sanctifies them. He is the Husband, and He comes into the soul, and leaves His Child Michael (Jesus Christ) there. I was simply used by God as an emblem, and I was forced to do it. Jesus Christ was used by God to show the sacrifice. I was used by God to show the marriage of the sacrifice. Those others who were also forced to consummate the marriage of the Lamb with me, were also driven to request it of me. I never, ever, required, or asked for sex from anyone. I was never to put my hand to it. I told Ben this, but he left that part out.
Ben made it appear in his movie that he caught me at things. This was a lie. My son and I almost had to use superhuman energy to get Ben out of the garden and record real events here. Some of the events in the movie were recorded as true, while they were lies, pure and simple. We wanted Ben to know what happened here. God told me to tell all, and I did. God will use it to separate the sheep from the goats. Every eye now sees me, and what God has done, and they make their decision. Yet, when they see the sign of the Son of Man, all tribes mourn as it is written.
athinking man: Certainly your observation is natural in the earth. There was one biblical prophet who was told to marry a whore. Another one ran around naked. When God instructs his Messiah (Anointed) to do something, the natural barriers must be discarded. One cannot consult with the norms of society without risking his own relationship with God. God warned me that if I refused to follow His instructions, He would leave me and I would go insane as did Nebuchadnezer.
There are those who left us who now return to the forum to stand critically by. But these critics do not tell the whole story. One such person on this forum went to drugs and ended up in jail while not with us. Some parents of children were involved in serious infidelity outside of our church experience. They wanted a life of debauchery and their children wanted no part of it. so the children stayed. This story is not told. It is true that some people who have been members of our church, are greatly offended in me, because I would not support them in their perfidy against their family, friends, or God. I held them to honesty, and to being exposed. We have no secret life here. Now these sanctimonious souls make web sites to come against us, and me in particular, when their own lives are the pit of hell and they know it. They said Jesus had a devil, and they say the same of me. Jesus was a great offense to his generation, and I am a great offense to mine.
Falcon: your comments are typical of one with no mind. You have no heart to understand anything but your flesh. When and if you can ever actually reason from cause to effect, you might be able to enter into a meaningful dialogue.
I am one of the people at Strong City. I have known Michael for many years and have never met a man who has been more, and still is, in his integrity through all those years. He has never asked us to follow Him blindly. He has told us to ask God what we were to do and to ask God if He is of God. I have not followed Him because of what He has said but because of what Father Himself has told me personally.
His teachings are clear and plain. I knew who He was before He said anything about it Himself. The Father revealed it to me. Michael has never tried to keep us here. I have come and gone as I desired. Someone that has known me for years, but is not here at Strong City, said to me recently, “You are sane for the first time in your life.” I have been healed from many disorders because of the Son of God that has walked and talked among us. They have been deep emotional and spiritual ones. My mind is clear now instead of clouded with fears. I know that God loves me because He has revealed Himself to me through His Son Michael and through a knowing deep inside my being.
As I watched the movie all I could see was my compassionate Saviour. The comments of Ben and his emotionally manipulative music sank into insignificance as I saw the sweet face of Michael and listened to His words. Never a man spake like this man. And just as the angels promised at the ascension of Christ, “This same Jesus which was taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner (a man) as ye have seen Him go into heaven” has truly come to pass.
Ben, the movie maker, and those who have left us, have “hated” the light that shown into their dark souls, revealing the dark practices of their lives. “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” John 3:19-21 Yes, Ben, your deeds are indeed evil, along with all the coconspirators who are fighting against the God of heaven. But it is good that you have made this movie, for it reveals your true heart, Ben, and is bringing the whole world into a decision for or against the truth.
These words of a song have come to me as I am finishing here:
Let the world deride or pity,
I will glory in Thy name;
Fading is the worldling’s pleasure,
All his boasted pomp and show;
Solid joys and lasting treasure
None but Zion’s children know.
As for myself, “I would rather suffer affliction (from the tongues of the wicked rabble) than to enjoy the pleasures of sin (in your dark, dysfunctional world) for a season.”
The movie portrayed our time in this land in the grossest light possible regarding the incredibly significant events that occurred here. It is not surprising that one would not comprehend, understand or receive a sense of the import of those things that took place here based on the misrepresented and false information in the movie. Some events may appear shocking at first, but had they been presented in their true light, one may have had the opportunity to view the Truth and Light that these precious events were intended to symbolize.
I truly appreciate this movie, Ben, in that I now have a real, literal, physical example of how the media manipulates information. I’ve heard and believed it based on evidence provided in other scenarios, but have never had the priviiege of firsthand information to know it for a fact. Thank you, Ben, for the opportunity to see the light. You couldn’t have done it better.
What is so interesting to me is the mass of humanity (cattle) reflected on this website who, as in most information presented by the media, willingly jumped headlong into the ditch (pit) and bought the “story” Ben Anthony portrayed without firsthand information. The intentionally deceptive compilation and arrangement of the massive amount of information and material Ben received from us certainly has influenced many to view what has occurred here in a most distorted light. But then this is how the people view what is presented them in the media - as the gospel truth - and they want (love) it that way. But, he who has eyes to see and ears to hear will.
As part of the ‘graveyard’ (Timothy) apparently enjoying ‘the pleasures of sin’ (Joy), and being one of the ‘cattle’ (Mesha), I just want to reiterate a point I made above:
So the Father says you can have sex with other people’s wives and encourage children to get naked, and he can change the date at the end of the world, and only the spiritually blind and faithless would dare to question such things.
I expect I am wrong here, after all, how can a graveyard, sinful, bull be expected to get it right - but even to a decaying, sinful animal like me, it seems that such behaviour, would be regarded as immorality and muddled thinking to an awful lot of people. I also, of course, expect that members of the cult will continue to rejoice in their isolation, taking it as proof that they are right, and go on creating their own meaning and justifications in the face of what the rest of the world would regard as so clearly wrong. And I know too that he who dares tell the emperor what everyone else can see, namely that he has no clothes, risks being shot down by all those who have invested so much in convincing themselves that nakedness is clothed, that black is white, that adultery is godly, and that sexual abuse didn’t happen.
Whatever you think about the documentary, even Michael seems to agree that
he engaged in sexual acts with several women who were married to other men at the time, and
he allowed several teenage women to take off their clothes and lie on a bed with him.
He also used his faith or his position as leader or messiah or his contact with the Father to justify both of the above.
Most of the rest of us would regard that as sinful, and most of the rest of the people who believe the bible would certainly regard it as such. It tends to be called things like ‘lust’, ‘fornication’, and ‘adultery’.
As you say, he or she who has eyes to see and ears to hear will.
I wonder, does it even strike the viewer of this film, why those specific cuts of music and sound effects were used? Out of at least 100 hours of filming, a good portion of which were personal interviews, Ben chose to used pictures of inanimate objects and distance shots to spin his story. He surgically chose scenes and facial expressions to fit his questions and innuendoes. Add the right music and voila, you create a story.
I was particularly charmed by his use of the buzz word “compound”. He neglected to mention the barbed wire, but then, this is found everywhere for we live in cattle country and every piece of land is fenced off and gated. They are called “ranches”.
The media does this type of thing all the time, and surly you all must be aware of it. It leaves one to ask where are these personal, detailed and intimate interviews? Why didn’t Ben let the people involved in the consummations tell their own story? Instead he placed before you a young boy who is quiet and meditative by nature, but he did make good camera fodder. The one husband who was shown, is normally emotional and gets teary-eyed over the least thing but you would not know that unless you were told; more good fodder. What about the other husband? His personal temperament is quiet and unaffected. His manner is gentle and clear. Where is his testimony? It must of lacked something to wet Ben’s appetite. And then there is Jeff. He often sits with his head down during meetings too, this is his normal way of listening and processing. But Ben was quick to make use of this pose to sell his story.
Everyone here have all become naked before our Maker, Husband and Friend, and he has treated us with the utmost respect and gentleness. He has touched our wounds and brought healing to our soul. What occurred with the girls was a symbol of that, a living parable that helped our poor human minds to see that deliverance from our fears and offenses takes more than sitting in church a few hours a week. The fullness of the stature of the Son of God has been seen by us in Wayne. That is why we are drawn. By beholding Him we have been changed to be like Him.
Truly, we were laying naked with Ben when he was here, but he could not remove his cloths of dishonesty and in his lust he has molested us, but I know he couldn’t help himself. That is what a man does when he refuses to see what God is revealing.
When Jesus went to Jerusalem to be crucified he did so on purpose, and he gave them everything they needed to convict and crucify him. But it served to glorify him all the more at his resurrection. Michael told Ben more than once that he could make him look good or trash him, it would make no difference. Michael gave Ben everything he needed to crucify him and it was a perfect crucifixion, well done Ben.
Both were lifted up as criminals and exposed to open shame for the world to mock. It will serve to make those like Ben more entrenched in their delusion, and those like Michael more strong in their faith when the vindication comes. Jesus was vindicated at his resurrection and ascension. Michael will be vindicated by the change of body, the resurrection of the dead and ascension, not only in Wayne, but in all of those in whom Michael dwells.
I can’t imagine how Ben is going feel when he stands along side Pilate and Caiaphas. What a gut wrenching thought it will be that he came that close to heaven and missed it.
So when is the vindication going to come, Judah?
athinkingman: Think about this then. You say that by me following God’s instructions that I would be considered a sinner. Yes, most people would, even though they excuse themselves from visiting the porn sites on the Web. The Bible says that it is a sin to marry a whore, yet God commanded a prophet to do so. The bible says it is a sin to murder, yet, Elijah murdered 400 priests of another religion.
Men accuse me of sin, but vote for men who waged the war in Iraq, literally murdering hundreds of thousands of men women and children, poisoning their water, raping them and robbing them. “Christians” are participants in this inhuman activity, but millions approve and vote for it. Tell me thinking man, which is worse. Having sex, or murdering millions by lying the population into supporting it. Tell me thinking man, what do you think about the murders you pay for, if indeed you pay your taxes? I would surely love understanding how a thinking man would reply. I am certain that those innocent Iraqi families that Americans murdered would like it much more if Mr. Bush had a little sex instead. Don’t you think so, thinking man? Why is not Mr. Bush in prison? It is because Americans are with him in his crimes. So save me the morality talk. This nation does not have an inch of room to talk about morality, or illicit sex, or anything else. America and the UK are nations of thieves and liars. They feign morality, and purity, but their hearts are as black as midnight.
This is one reason God commanded me to do these things. It was to expose the hypocrisy of those who would bring accusation against me. It was to judge the nations for their crimes, and they have been judged right here on this forum and on other forums as well. No, we will not convince you, but that is not our intention. I told Ben just exactly this. I told him that his movie would judge the world, and it is doing just that.
[...] Original posting. [...]
Michael: Interesting tactic, trying to move attention away from yourself by introducing pornography and Iraq. Let me try to cut through the smoke screen.
Whatever other people do isn’t the issue here. I am not responsible for them, and in this case, am only talking to you. It is about your actions, not about other people’s. Your defence (leaving aside the argument that other people are worse than me - no defence in my book) seems to be, I am a prophet and the Father told me to do these things.
Surely Michael, you must see that such a claim has to be challenged, if not doubted. On such a basis, anyone could commit any crime and find a justification for it. If you are a prophet, what proof is there?
I know you will want to talk about healings etc. but we both know the power of group-think and psychological placebos. If there was someone in your group who was an amputee and you made their stump re-grow, I would have to take your claim more seriously. If you tell me you know the end of the world and it happens, then of course, you will be vindicated and I will have to listen.
In the meantime, to me it looks very much like you are living in a fantasy world of your creation, made all the more powerful by at least two things: 1) you are invoking the name of the divine to support your delusions (and that is always very powerful for those who cannot see through it), and 2) you are surrounded by a group of people prepared to feed your fantasy.
I know such a discussion will be meaningless to you, but I do appreciate you putting your points here. I know it is impossible to use normal modes of discourse appealing to reason and common sense. Your justification takes you beyond that - God moves in mysterious ways and all that. As I said in my original posting:
The third disturbing thing about the group, is that they have a theory that explains everything, even those things which are contrary to reason. You cannot hold rational discourse with them. They are unsinkable rubber ducks. Whenever you shoot them down, they just bob back up again.
athinkingman
You are asking the wrong question. Well over a half century ago, when England was preparing for war do you suppose anyone could tell you when the Blitz was going to occur, or just where a bomb might land? They knew it was coming but no one knew exactly when.
If I did know the day and the hour, and I told you, what would you do with that information? Your either scoffing or you are exhibiting the mind set of a time server when you ask such a question.
The heart is real the issue here. So I would ask you are you ready for the vindication? Will you be one who receives that new body or be left without?
As I just reread your first post I would have to agree that it was not a cheese sandwich, but the movie and it’s dark tail that you were inseminated with that is affecting you.
Perhaps this is the key to understanding. Intercourse with a spirit comes in the form of thoughts and ideas that are planted in the womb of our mind, these are like sperm. By receiving these thoughts it reproduces the likeness of that spirit in the soul. You begin to think and act like that spirit because you are carrying his “child”. What is needed is an abortion. Can you see that the movie is an artfully contrived deception?
athinkingman: Yes it is true that what I do does not depend on other people. Your point is well taken. But you did not answer my original point? What about God’s men in the Bible, who killed thousands, including Moses. He murdered thousands of his own people. I have murdered no one. How do you know that Moses was not just suffering from a Messiah complex? Who says God talked to him? It was only he who said so. You might say, “just look at the miracles.” His people looked at the miracles and they did not think that they were so great. All of the ones he promised new homes to died in the wilderness. How is that for a cult leader? He takes everyone from their home in Egypt, promises them a new one, and then they all die out there. You point to miracles as proof. Can we get real??? Is there any greater miracle than for a 66 year old man being asked for intimacy by young women when the 66 year old man never intimated that or thought of it? Just choose your miracle. Were the miracles of Jesus just group think? If miracles convinced people, would not the Jews have been convinced by the miracles of Jesus?
You said that you would believe if a limb were restored by me. No you would not. I once prayed for a young boy who lost his eye when a little friend threw a stick into it. The physician in charge told me the boy’s eye had been destroyed. The stick had gone clear into the cones and mutilated it. When the boy was released from the hospital, I prayed for him and anointed him. The hospital took his bandage off when he returned for a check up and his eye was fully restored, even to better sight than the non damaged one. You see, miracles are for those who see them and understand them, but you will not believe though I raise someone from the dead. It makes no difference. It is the truth that converts, and not miracles. It is the Spirit Who causes one to see reality and not outward signs.
But tell me, if I were like Moses and killed my church members for being bad, or I killed 400 Catholic priests like Elijah, would you consider me a believer in God? If like Moses, I got my followers to believe that you were evil, so I took my believers as Moses did, into your town and took over the homes of everyone there, killing them in the process, would you consider me a believer in God? If I walked around naked in the street as one prophet did, would you not think I was nuts? How can you judge me? How would you know what God told me? You would only know if the Father told you Himself that I was His Son. There is no other way you would know, just as they did not know Jesus when he came to them.
athinkingman (ATM):
When I read your response to Michael, Mesha, Joy and Timothy, I must admit to some perplexity as to how you could use the moniker you have, and expect people to take you seriously. In your re-posted statement, all you accomplished is to display your inability to read or think critically, and by extension, deny the very meaning of your forum name.
You mentioned – again – “encouraging children to get naked” and – again – implied that Michael changed “the date at the end of the world.” I thought you and I had watched the same documentary, or did you simply fabricate a personalized version in your own head? By your screen name, you apparently consider yourself “a thinking man” while at the same time you allow the BBC producer to do your thinking for you.
I have been with Michael during the entire life of this church, and have read every word of the hundreds, if not thousands, of pages he has written, and NOWHERE will you find any mention of his setting a date for the end of the world. Nor is there any credible evidence (other than perhaps your own bovine-like thinking, lead by Ben Anthony) where he encouraged any child to “get naked” with him. But of course, even though the only place you have heard that is from the BBC producer, you will undoubtedly continue embracing your somewhat elastic relationship with the facts, as well as clutching desperately the threads of your own invisible clothing, while implying that Michael is the emperor without clothes.
And your response to Judah was quite in harmony with the rut-like reasoning you display here. How would Judah know when the “vindication” is coming, or even what it is, when Michael himself has made no claims as to its perceived form, time or substance?
Mr. ATM, did you by chance over-medicate yourself before you tried applying your decerebrate logic to Michael and his followers? Clearly your standards of morality are either self-created, or the self-adjusted derivative of other’s thoughts, predicated on their own sliding scale of situational morality. So what you are left with is simply a structure of ethics based exclusively on your imagination (by which I am marginally giving you credit for being what your screen name implies: one who originates his own thoughts). However, if you are like most who present themselves as such, you do not derive your principles from any thinking of your own, but rather from an amalgamated slurry of ideas extracted from others who acquire their inner-referenced ideas from the same mechanism. You know what I mean, kind of an intellectual inbreeding?
Seemingly you either extract your thoughts, whole cloth, from your personal brain chemistry, or you are very much like M.C. Escher’s print of two hands drawing themselves. Except it is evident that your pencil is out of lead – a fact of which you must be unaware.
Keep it up, sir, your are quite effectively your own very best repudiation.
I’m sorry Michael, but quoting examples from the bible won’t work for me as I do not accept its authority. I operate in the real world, not one of fictional religious mumbo-jumbo. There are too many issues surrounding the compilation of the canon and the changing of texts to fit doctrines for me to accept it as divine revelation. I think what Moses and Elijah are reported to have done is appalling. I think sexual abuse is appalling. I suppose I have to be relieved that god has not yet told you to kill your community, though I have no doubt that if he does, you will do it. I keep coming back to a word I used a lot in my original article - “chilling”.
Sorry Judah, I thought I had just asked a perfectly reasonable question. I didn’t realize my mind had been inseminated, but thank you for pointing it out. I just need to go and check your assessment out with a few other people first though.
Sorry Gabriel, I’m not going to begin to try to answer that. You’ll just have to pray for me, and get others around you to confirm that you are right about me.
Very good, thinking man. Now I know where you stand on the Scriptures. So, now that the Scriptures are meaningless to you, then so is God. That being settled, how on earth to you have the gall to judge me for anything? Are you God? You think what Elijah did was appalling. On what do you base your thinking? How can you even know what is right or wrong then, except for the society that makes up its own morality and feeds it to you. If morality is made up by the society, then who dares to accuse me of immorality. May we not make up our own morals then in our community? Thinking man, you have just lost your case.
Michael, I was merely trying to point out - ‘judge you’ in your words - that there seemed to be a glaring inconsistency between YOUR behaviour, and YOUR good book. It is, of course, deeply insulting and completely fallacious to argue that people who are not theists have no morality, but leaving that aside, the issue is you and the bible. In my copy of it, whether it be the Old Testament, the New Testament, or the Gospels, fornication is called sin. Or perhaps you are one of those New Religious Movements that have invented your own bible? I suppose that would be consistent with everything else you are claiming.
athinkingman: That is precisely my point. I clearly showed you how my actions were very much consistent with the good book. But then you say you do not accept the good book. You reasoning is entirely an empty hole. No matter the point that is made you just bob up again. How does one reason with such a mind as yours. You think like a young child of about five years old, who just wants what he wants, but mommy and daddy cannot get through.
Again, my point is, not that you or anyone else is immoral, but that you judge me according to your own brand of morality. How can you judge anything, when it is only manufactured from your own opinions. I showed you that my actions were consistent with the Scriptures, but then you reject them. Very well, if you can make up your own morality, cannot I do the same?
Michael, probably 99% of Christians who take their ethics from the bible would think your are wrong. Lots of non-Christians who have to work out their own ethics would not be happy with your actions. I think you are wrong. But I accept that you think you are right, I accept that you think you can justify it from the bible, and I accept that in your world, the fact that I and others and the majority of bible believing Christians would think that you are wrong just confirms your view that you are right.
You can make up your own morality. You have clearly done so. You appear to be accountable to no-one, so I have no illusions that you would listen to me. I reserve the right to say I think you are wrong.
“Michael, probably 99% of Christians who take their ethics from the bible would think your are wrong.”
—————————————-
And what do you think 99% of christians would sat if God commanded someone to kill their child, as happened to Abraham?
Is it not the duty of a Christian to follow the voice of God?
Gotta love it. Use the Bible to judge others, but make up your own morality to judge yourself. Definitely a lost case.
Oops Timothy, didn’t realise I was judging you - just thought that because you claimed to believe the bible that I ought to point out you seemed to be missing the bits out about adultery. Sorry. I thought you might be concerned about your own standards.
Perhaps if I said that God had told me to tell you that you might take my point more seriously? And if not, why not?
You are very wrong here, thinking man. I am accountable to God. I am very accountable to Him. I would have never, ever done what I have, except is was commanded me. And why do you compare me with other men? Other men think murder is wrong, but then they murder Iraqis and think it is right. And why would you refer to 99% of Christians when you have rejected their book? I am sorry thinking man, but your logic escapes me.
You have me wrong when you say that other’s disapproval only works in my mind to prove me right. I just know what the truth is, and wherever I hear the truth, even if from a monkey, I would know it. I also know when men’s “truth” is nonsense. I do not care about the majority. The majority of Christians are committing murder today. I care about what God tells me, man to man. And I obey what He tells me. So judge that. If what I have done is a problem for you, then taking it to God would be a reasonable thing to do. He can tell you about it, or just leave you in the dark. But I am beholden to Him.
Finally, thinking man, you may just chalk me up as a deluded fanatic because I hear God talk to me. I would not be surprised if you did. But without that, there can be no basis for right or wrong. Without the Voice speaking to the soul, everything is for nothing, and vanity. And yes, God is my authority. I have said this a thousand times, for without that, this vain life would not be worth living. God is the only meaning for it.
Ok Michael, you claim to be accountable to god. I suppose all I can say is that you are, doubtless sincerely, being accountable to your understanding of god, and presumably that understanding is shared by 56 other people. I do not doubt that you think that is a good thing. In your world and logic that makes sense.
I live in another world and it makes no sense to me. We both think the other person is blind and cannot see the nose in front of his face. We cannot have meaningful dialogue. That saddens me, but I accept it is true. I have my way of interpreting that, and you have yours.
Ok thinking man, I accept your judgment. It is true as you say, that we live in different worlds. These two worlds cannot hear each other, for they are too far apart. This saddens me also, but it is what it is. If you are happy with what you have, I am happy with it too.
Judah: I will answer the question, “When the vindication?” When you least expect it.
That is what I was referring to, Michael, when I referenced his “own sliding scale of situational morality.” He lives in a world where there are no absolutes, so he makes up his own. What that is, realistically, is a camouflaged version of “might makes right.” Since there is no absolute authority, someone has to make rules that killing is wrong, but the hitch-in-his-gettalong is that if someone comes by with a bigger gun to reinforce HIS rule that killing (or stealing, or rape, etc.) is moral, then suddenly the definition of morality takes a very large leap in another direction, and Mr. ATM becomes a casualty of his own ethics.
Invariably those ethics are founded on his universal god: the majority. Never mind that there is no functional reason to determine that the majority is at all moral, because after all, morality is, in his world, ultimately – and only – self-defined.
Gabriel: The word for this is, “self righteousness.”
Precisely! Thank you Michael (at the risk of appearing as one of your mindless followers who agrees with everything you say). Brevity is clearly and art I’ve not yet mastered.
The reason they let the BBC into their compound surrounded by barbwire (thank you Judah for letting us know that) Wayne wanted his flesh petted and his story told. If he would have been God he would have known what Ben Anthony was going to do. He wouldn’t have to defend himself so much if he was doing the right thing. If he was telling the truth he wouldn’t have to say anything at all. The very government that he is complaining about is the one protecting him I am sure. Here in the UK we do things a little differently.
John: You give yourself away John by assuming that you know my motives. How would you know that I wanted my flesh petted, except that you judge me by your own motivations? I knew very well what Ben was going to do and as I said, and I told him so while he was here. God told me to let him come, so I did. It was to judge you that it was permitted.
It seems that your arguments against me would fit Jesus. Why did he defend himself? They said that he had a devil, and he said that they had a devil. Have you ever read Matthew 23? Seems to me that your method of discussion is simply one of prejudice. You judge something before you have any idea what you are talking about. If I were you, I would go back and read the thread over again, do some meditation, pray a little, and then perhaps you will have the mental alacrity to communicate intelligently.
John, I hope you do not engage this kind of deductive reasoning in the rest of your life – but then, perhaps you do.
You clearly have no working definition of the difference between defending one’s self, and simply explaining the facts and correcting errors and lies. It seems you may have confused your own principles with Michael’s – especially when revealing to us that you very likely would love to have YOUR flesh petted.
AThinkingMan:
Here’s something I want to say to you:
True Christians do not think- they let God think for them. It sounds as if you are using your own thoughts and not God’s. “Who can judge but God?”
A non thinker who’s mind is worked by the Father.
I wonder if those who mocked and scoffed at Noah’s claims about an imminent flood, and considered themselves so wise for not falling for the line that there was going to be a flood (because there had never been one before), had any second thoughts about how “wrong” Noah was as the waters started to rise when the rain started to fall and they were OUTSIDE the ark. But that’s probably a moot point for you, a”thinking”man, since you probably don’t believe in the flood, believing the Bible to be fiction and only referring to its existence when it is convenient and in your self interest to support your views.
After just having watched the documentary I feel disgusted by Michael, sorry, I mean Wayne Bent. I have doubts wether he truly believe what he says.
He has ruined many peoples lives, none more than his sons. I thought that adultry was a sin?? If so, then why his he sleeping with his daughter-in-law? Also, when in the documentary we ridiculed Ben for suggesting the kids had no choice about following him I was left shocked. How could they have a choice when it’s all that they know?
Michael/Wayne, can you answer these questions for me because I really can’t get my head around any of it?!
P.S. I like how you (m/w) get the house, fully kitted out, when the 15 year old boy has the pleasure of living in a hut with only a bed!
Ross: I would suggest that you read all of this thread. Some of your answers are already posted. Ben distorted many things here. He used a very neat way of loading his audience. You are a victim too. The boy you asked about wanted to live in a dome we built here, not far from his grandparents house. He now lives down closer to them. He enjoys his grandparents very much, and has no complaints. We care for all of his needs.
Why do you make the judgment that I have ruined many people’s lives. How would you even know that. Come here and ask them if their lives are ruined before you assume such things. They are all very happy and contented, and would not want your world for the taking. After Ben raped the land with his movie, one young lady said to me, “I would never want to go into Ben’s world where men are so evil, while pretending to be good.”
There has been no adultery here in the land. It is a long story, but if there were adultery, do you not suppose the previous husbands would know it? No one here saw any adultery.
Go ahead and read the thread, and some light may dawn on you.
athinkingman,
No, you were not judging me. My statement was in reference to your judgment of Michael. My mentioning of the case definitely being lost was to express agreement with what Michael had previously stated to you. It is a lost case because, as you said, you and him (and me) live in two different worlds. This contrast is the outworkings of the declaration in the Bible regarding the enmity that was placed between the seed of the serpent, and the seed of the woman. Michael’s appearing has brought this enmity to the point of critical mass.
And, if God had told you to tell me something, it would be unmistakably plain because we were all born with a witness within us (the seed of the woman) that responds to God. As Joy quoted earlier, “He is the true light that lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world.”
I watched the movie and read some comments about it. And it was strongly on my heart to share my heart with all of you here. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. I am not here to argue what is Truth and what are the Lies. People judge by what they hear. If i were to tell someone about a person before that someone met this person, that someone would already have a judgment about that person. Whether those things i said were positive or negative. My Point here being is with the movie there were already thngs out there before the movie was shown. Opinions about what others or even Ben Anthony himself thought or perceive from their own or his own context.
Also, I see. too, that if Ben would of presented our story how it really was it would of been different. Just like Michael mentioned ,wouldn’t it of been crazy enough?(in the viewing from the world)
As i read the posts on here from those that are against Michael, a saying that Anthony de Mello uses a lot is from an American Author, came to my mind, ” Don’t teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and it irritates the pig.” Anthony de Mello also says something like Your life is in a mess, Oh you don’t believe that. Do you ever get lonely, impatient,angry, etc. Well, if you do ,Your life is in a mess. Oh you don’t want to hear that. Okay Byyyye!
Oh i am not calling anyone a pig here, i am referring to what that saying means. If someone doesn’t agree to what you are trying to say, you shouldn’t keep at them and at them it will just irritate them because they are fixed on what they see. They really don’t want to see what you are saying. In this case, what athinkingman has said, he is fixed in what he believes. There is no use waisting our time.
It is interesting to me to see that all these murderers and rapists, etc, aren’t viewed in the light that they view Michael. It reminds me when the crowd was yelling “Crucify Him!”(referring to Jesus) they wanted Barabbas released instead of Jesus. Barabbas was a murderer, etc. Jesus committed no crime. Barabbas was a liar also. All Jesus did was speak the truth and lived it. Did only what His Father instructed Him. He only did those things that pleased His Father.and He was crucified because of who He was? not for a crime He committed. HE being the Son Of God. They killed Him because He convicted them of who they really were and it would make them look pretty bad. So instead of seeing who they were and repent of it and tell the others what they did, they saved their reputation(their own skin) and killed Him instead.
Michael has done nothing but only did those things that pleased His Father. He spoke/speaks the truth and lives it. Also, just like Barabbas was coming from his flesh(SELF) and so were the others that wanted Barabbas. I saw Ben Anthony as such as that and those who agree with Ben.
I just see that the world is so far from God.
I know that from this movie the Truth will be Vindicated. The Truth will come out like lightning to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Regardless what Ben Anthony has done to the movie.
Also, I would like to share with you things that Father(God) has revealed to me. It was around 1994, i was married and living in a small city in Oregon. I was comtemplating what took place in Waco and pondering it in my heart and talking with Father. I was looking at all the things that happen within the Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, etc. and saying Father a lot of these cults have sex in them. Is this really what you are wanting, but these men have taken it into their lusts of the flesh? but what You are wanting these men couldn’t do it because they took it upon themselves? Are You trying to show us something here Father? Only His Love could accomplish that. The flesh only has human love. It isn’t the real thing. So, for what Father was wanting was a vessel that His Seed (His Spirit) could enter in to accomplish this very thing. The marriage is something that God made sacred it was a symbol to show us what our union with God would look like. But the world and it’s lusts ruined it. I knew He was bringing this all to me for a purpose. I contemplated all these things in my heart . And saw what God was revealing to me.
Another time later i was upstairs in our house and at that time out of my heart came,: Someone is going to have to be filled with the Spirit of God completely or we are all lost. ” And i said and you know very well who that is going to be. And the man i was with at that time, said you really believe that don’t you and i said yes i do and i know it is going to happen. He was quiet for a while and i went down the stairs. I also saw what God was revealing to me in that. The Second Coming.
athinkingman: I don’t have anything to put on you here. I see it doesn’t matter what is said, you are fixed on what you believe. So this isn’t for you i can see that. I don’t have nothing to teach you it would just waist my time and irritate you. I just know that Father put it on my heart to share what i have written here.. So it is for someone else or others.
I do not live here at Strong City, even though it may appear that way to readers. I once did. The reason you can see and hear the unity between those that believe in Michael is Because the Spirit of God Unites Us with Him. Michael has never told me to say this or do that. He has always told us Do what Father tells you to do. He has always told me the truth about myself. He has always loved me with a Real Love. I have never known or seen Love like this. This Love only comes from God
I know people might attack me, but it is okay. I have nothing to argue about. For i have been verbally attacked before. I know that silence keeps you in times like that.
Ross: To answer your question: These children had a choice. The 15 year old young man and his sister was thrush into the world. They saw what it was all about. They made their choice. Really honestly that is the truth. They want what they have.
Dear Michael, after reading your last post I was just considering how you have “ruined” my life on the earth forever. Of course, you have done so in a way that the world cannot comprehend.
You have taken away all my desires for earthly gain. I own nothing, and I care not to own anything. And you have crushed all my earthly ambitions - ie., to retire and travel and live happily ever after on the earth. You’ve overturned my dysfunctional earthly marriage. The list could go on and on…
But is there anything I would change? Absolutely not a thing. You have provided me with a comfortable home. I am well fed and well clothed and every need is bountifully supplied. Life here in our Strong City, where there are no robberies or rapes or murders, and no domestic violence or disputes with the neighbors, where never is heard an angry voice, cannot even begin to be compared with the world others live in where these things are “normal” daily happenings.
But even in all of this, I look for a better country, a heavenly country, for this earth is not my home. You have done a perfect work of fitting me to dwell in the courts of heaven for all eternity. You have given me Your Life to live, the very Life You lived in the first coming [appearing/revealing] of Christ in Jesus of Nazareth 2000 years ago. You have established in me God’s covenant of peace that passes the understanding of the world. You have brought me into a marriage union with God Himself that will never be broken, where my only desire is to love Him with all my heart, and to hear His Voice, and to know and do His will in all things.
Now would I trade what you have given me for what the world has to offer? No, no, and NO. They may have all the world, but give me Michael, the Son of God and Son of Man - God’s Gift of Life to the world.
Tonight I was browsing some of the news on BBC, and I was hit with the thought, “How do I know that any of this is true?” Yes they have pictures and quotes, but after watching Ben’s movie I felt this deep sense of mistrust about the of credibility of anything in the media.
KOB-4 in Albuquerque did a report on us six years ago. They also made up fabrications, about us, and our relationship to the police and the FBI. I expect that it had to do with the brevity of their report that it had such a limited effect on me. But now I see things very differently. Thank you Ben for your help.
I reread most of the posts here and came to a few conclusions that I would like to share.
Post 5 JP Manzi
“It is completely mind boggling how people can be so persuaded. It is nearly impossible to comprehend….”
Although JPM is coming from the opposite side of the issue, I thought this post stated it very well. Let me explain.
After reading some of the posts from Michael and others of us, it would stand to reason that you might begin to question The truthfulness of Ben Anthony. Yet I have not heard one retraction or concern about the propaganda that you were fed, apart from Enrico in post 17. He has been the only one in the “opposition” who seems to be intellectually honest.
I clipped a few statements from some of the posts above and placed them below to point out something you all might want to think about, if that is still possible. I have [bracketed] the important words worth considering.
“delusion that was [apparent]”
“while watching the program [I found myself thinking...group psychosis]”
“it would [seem] that many people have been seriously damaged…”
“I cannot [imagine] how emotionally deprived…”
“To an outsider it would [seem]”
“I [feel] he is trapped in that cult.”
These are only a few but they make it clear that the movie worked a number on your feelings and emotions, which is exactly what Ben and his handlers wanted to do. This kind of approach overthrows the reason and takes the mind captive. But the creme de la creme was this one:
“[This man really gave me chills.]”
No, it was not Wayne that gave you chills. It was Ben Anthony that did that, and he could make any of you look creepy with his camera magic if he had a mind to.
This film was made to play on your emotions and you got sucked into it. Enrico’s unsolicited and unbiased observation disproves one of Ben’s illusion, albeit the major theme of his movie. “No date was ever set for the end of the world.” A thinking man might begin to turn his criticisms on Ben, and start asking some real challenging questions about his movie.
So what do we see here? You have unquestioningly followed a man who has lied to you. You have been brainwashed by cunning and deception through the art of the cinema. Now like the Salem witch hunters you blindly champion the cause without reason or honesty. So who is to be pitied? We have made it clear that much of the other things he portrayed are also questionable. But still you hold to your position.
One of the most glaring things I see is that no one has asked any real questions that might express an honest curiosity as to what really happened and why. The questions you do ask are only challenges with question marks at the end. This comes from a spirit that cannot know or learn the truth. It is not interested in the truth, for it already knows what is “true” and cannot be persuaded otherwise. It says “I think”, but really, it is the feelings that are in gear.
So, I again quote JPM:
“It is completely mind boggling how people can be so persuaded. It is nearly impossible to comprehend….”
You’ve touched on a good point Judah. In this film, a Seed of truth is visible for all to see and to ponder. All those who’ve watched this film saw the Christ return in the clouds (shrouded in mystery and darkness), and now get to judge Him according to the reflection that is in their own heart. If their heart is corrupt, they will see Michael as a vile person. If it is a holy God who resides in their heart, then that is what they will see in the Son Michael.
Well “thinking man”, I bet your thinking to yourself “what a can of worms have I opened up here.” I’m not going to defend myself, I was the person “Michael” spoke of as having turned to drugs and spent time in jail. I haven’t felt the need to defend the past mistakes of my life and only answer the need to understand my present. I tell people who ask me about my past the facts as they stand. Am I proud of this past. No. But to use my past as a character assasination weapon to discredit what I have said seems some what low. My past is not without its spots and I have yet to meet the person whose past isn’t.
I have really enjoyed the ongoing dialog. As a positive, I got to hear from my mother, and mom I love you too! I really mean that.
Thanks for the facinating forum.
Michael, I must appologise for the way i must have said something, after much thought I have realised that there are two sides to every story and that yours may not of directly been told during the film that we have watched.
I do however have a few general questions to share with the forum, i will re-post once i am certian with these..
One question is why does God now not give blessing on marriage, and is Love just an illusion?
Séphiroth: Love is not an illusion. What men think love is, is an illusion. “In love” is a lie. True love is sacrificial, giving its life for the welfare of another. Earthly love, or mere human love, is simply the love of an animal. It can be made to be upset at the object of that love. Mere human love turns to hate when it is crossed and this reveals the basis for many divorces, arguments, and distrust. Those who are ever upset with their companion, rude, impatient on occasion, selfish, complaining or disapproving, do not actually love anyone but themselves. They may have a belief of love, or an idea that they love because they “need” the person that they use for their own desires, but the only love that is truly love, is the love that bears every contradiction by the other.
Marriages are now a lie. The very term “marriage” means that two are wed together as one. When in the “marriage” someone takes the other for granted, or treats the other commonly, or is in disagreement over this and that, the term marriage does not apply. They might claim to be married, and even have a certificate saying so, but they lie, they are not married. Marriage today is full of abuse, lying, treachery, and self love, and the Father in heaven will not regard that. He has claimed the bride for Himself, and it is He Who does love, and He is a faithful Husband. When a soul connects itself to human need, and emotional dependencies, the “marriage” takes the soul away from the true Husband. God claims the soul for Himself, and no human has the right to step in His place and play God. God has declared that the time for personal abuse of others is over.
This selfless love, this holy sacrifice, that Michael speaks of, is what was twisted in the documentary to be shown as satanic manipulation of an ‘ego out of control’. This is like the spin that Lucifer put on the plans of God and His Son to create man in His image, because he imagined himself to be left out in some way. Ben was not left out of being shown this pure unconditional love in his time here, and his accusation that contempt was in Michael’s eyes for being questioned about the events which occurred, was pure fabrication based on his earthly minded judgment. Surely you noticed the artful (?) juxtaposition of Michael’s eyes and the eyes of the lizzard.
The true testimony of Michael’s Bride, which includes every one of us here, and many not living here, which you now have the opportunity to hear, was not given at all. I have never seen contempt in Michael’s eyes, even for acts of mine that were contemptible.
We, his Bride, were shown our human marriages, and that revealing was magnified by the visible, palpable love of Michael for each and every one of us, and for every one who left or came against the work that Father sent him to do. Personally, I can testify that no human being ever loved me as this man has, or can, and because of that love I also saw who Jesus really was and what He did in obedience to our Father in His preparing His Bride to receive Him when He came again in Michael to consumate, in reality, our marriage to Him. This knowledge did not come to me by my thinking, but by a revelation of God. That revelation came not with audible words, but with a power, that, unless one has experienced it, cannot be conveyed.
This marriage is the conclusion of the purpose of God to create man in his own image, which was diverted six thousand years ago, but now in the fulness of time will bring His vindication. Truly it is said, “The light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended (was able to think) it not.”
Rob, you said, “to use my past as a character assassination weapon to discredit what I have said seems some what low.”
You might want to make the wee observation that no one assassinated your character in order to discredit you, Rob. You quite effectively did that all by yourself. Michael never named the one to whom he was referring. Out of respect for you, his clear intention was to convey the information to you in private. In the “assassination,” you loaded the gun, you aimed it, and you pulled the trigger — over and over and over. All Michael desires is for you to receive life, but you chose death. Don’t blame him for that.
I think it’s great that you choose to segregate yourselves from society. I hate arrogance!! I’m an Atheist and am quite happy with my sense of morality. I do not kill, steal, lie, have sex with other wives husbands or interfere with children. I lead a happy and fullfilling life without religion. However, I do not think it’s our right to prevent people from practising their beliefs no matter how strange they may seem. You’re quite happy to critisize so called ‘non-believers’ as immoral, deluded and mis-guided but you cannot accept any criticism yourself. Do not stand there spouting off that your religion is the way to go as that is what all religions say. I have to admit, I watched the documentary and it didn’t make me mad as I thought you all seemed to be complete fruit loops that were better off segregated. If you are all so silly to believe this kind of stuff then I think we are all better off to leave you guys to it. What did make me mad though, is the fact that you justify your actions through a book that cannot be proven to be true.
With regards to the children that are being abused, unless authorities intervene, there is absolutely nothing can be done. Maybe when they get older, they might understand what’s happening but I think they’ll probably be even more convinced. Michael, you’re getting on a bit. Maybe when you finally pop your clogs and clear off, your followers may start to see sense. I’ve got my fingers crossed that you’ll finally be chosen to go to your higher place sometime soon!!!
This reminds me of the words to the song “Without Condition” by Ginny Owens.
You find this situation just a bit uncomfortable;
You’d rather stay far away from reality.
For you to understand would be clearly impossible;
So you shut your eyes and swear you can see.
Claiming there is a God, but does that mean anything?
So condescending to those that you don’t understand;
Just too easy to make them your enemies.
Like an ostrich, you bury your head in the sand,
And then shout about all the things you believe.
But if there is a God, don’t you think He can see
What you really mean? What you’re doing?
Chorus:
You can’t find the answers
Till you learn to question;
You won’t appear stupid
Just ask for direction.
You’re insecure and it clouds your perception
So stop and listen
And learn a lesson in love without condition.
So place all the souls that you know
in their own little box;
Quite convenient to handle them that way;
You’re the only one you know who carries a cross
You don’t care what they care about anyway.
You talk to your God,
Prayin’ for those who sin,
For their eyes to be opened
Chorus:
You can’t find the answers
Till you learn to question;
You won’t appear stupid
Just ask for direction.
You’re insecure and it clouds your perception
So stop and listen
And learn a lesson in love without condition.
I am here to respond to No. 58. The entry posted by Shecanaiah. I can do no other than add my “amen, amen and Amen,” to what you have expressed, Shecanaiah Re: Life in Strongcity, for it is exactly how it has been for me too. You ask, “Is there anything I would change? Absolutely not a thing,” is simply the way it is. And to you Michael, dearly Beloved One, I desire that the whole world know, that you are who you have said you are. I am standing by you, because you have stood by me, as no human being ever could. Fighting my battles with my-self…my only enemy. And I am just one who is going to be singing your praises forever for what you have accomplished here. I love you, because you first loved me. When there was absolutely NOTHING at all love-able about me. Nor ever will be. Your focus has always been on us. Your love is the only love there is..as Azaniah put it: “Selfless.” Never in the almost twenty years that I have sat at your feet, have I ever observed self-interest in your movements. Or heard you complain or chafe about being misunderstood. Your Spirit is the HOLY Spirit that bears EVERYTHING in patience and quietness, because YOU ARE LOVE Personified. You have lifted me out of the pit of hell, and drawn me to sit beside you in heavenly places, by opening my eyes to see what our Heavenly Father is really like. You have not been in competiton with any of us for power..or for anything, but have fulfilled every desire of our hearts. More than we could have ever asked for, or dreamed of. When we deserved to die a most cruel death. Thank you for dying in my place. What a sacred privilege to be chosen to be here/ to be spared in this final hour of a six thousand year war with the prince of death. Thank you; oh! t